Hi,
I am researching some of the 1977 sea-trials of S/V Merlin and came across this quote:
I am researching some of the 1977 sea-trials of S/V Merlin and came across this quote:
With so little beam, Merlin was never expected to go upwind with any speed. Off the wind, however, she created tremendous apparent wind. In flat water she would sail with the pole on the fore-stay while the true wind was well aft of the beam. “For those of us used to heavier boats, this was totally unique,” says Steve Taft, an early crew-member and the boat’s sail-maker for many years. “If the true wind died, we’d experience these incredible apparent wind crashes.”
I need some help defining the term, "apparent wind crash". If you have any information or opinion please feel free to ante up.
thanks
Hey Dave –
I don’t think Taft meant “crash” in the sense of a broach.
If the true wind suddenly drops to zero, and the boat is moving at, say 10 knots, then the apparent wind will come from directly ahead at 10 knots. The kite will collapse and you won’t be able to get it to fill, as you try to turn away from the wind to get it to fill, the apparent wind just follows the direction the boat is going and will appear to be coming from the direction the bow is pointed until the boat comes to a stop and the apparent wind drops to zero. I don’t see how this sequence of events would create a broach, but the kite will collapse. You see this sort of thing on the Express also.
Cheers,
Mark
My GUESS is over running the wind. Ask a sail-maker.
Gib
Gib
David:
I am surprised that you never experienced an "apparent wind crash" on your crossing on Chasch Mer. From my experience with apparent wind sailing on multi-hulls, it is an all too frequent and antagonizing affair. Most often, if you are reaching hard under spinny, with the true wind almost dead aft and you get a lull or a sudden shift aback, you get the mad mans gybe! I even experienced it on C Mer in the '07 delivery. Quite a different affair from an uncontrolled gybe on a displacement boat.
With all your experience, I was a bit taken aback by your lack of understanding of the phrase.
I believe if you look back at the polars you were sailing, with respect to the true wind speed and direction, you will remember those times the boat lost it! Apparent wind crash!
If you are interested in chartering a boat capable of sailing in the apparent wind category and need an experienced helmsman for this kind of sailing, send me a letter.
J
Jay,
I appreciate your response and I needed it.
There is a specific reason why I am researching that particular quote with respect to Merlin and 1977 and wanted multiple opinions from experienced sailors. I will edit those opinions
into an understandable paragraph for the non-sailor; that can be a difficult task, sometimes.
There are several technical aspects of sailing that I am currently researching and I need to clarify the way the words will be put together. I will eventually edit the responses and send it back out for a final round of opinions.
There currently is a range of opinions as to what it is but they are all close to each other. My problem is to edit those opinions, which means chopping them up, and make a statement that can be challenged.
In retrospect, we all have experienced an apparent wind crash but I got challenged by an editor to explain what that term means. That's when I stumbled.
I fly to Honolulu on 4/18 and will deliver CM to Long Beach and will keep my eyes open to the performance characteristics this time. I will also be doing the TP and should have a greater opp to see it again and hopefully will be able to define it as it pertains to the SC50.
Dave
Jay,
I appreciate your response and I needed it.
There is a specific reason why I am researching that particular quote with respect to Merlin and 1977 and wanted multiple opinions from experienced sailors. I will edit those opinions
into an understandable paragraph for the non-sailor; that can be a difficult task, sometimes.
There are several technical aspects of sailing that I am currently researching and I need to clarify the way the words will be put together. I will eventually edit the responses and send it back out for a final round of opinions.
There currently is a range of opinions as to what it is but they are all close to each other. My problem is to edit those opinions, which means chopping them up, and make a statement that can be challenged.
In retrospect, we all have experienced an apparent wind crash but I got challenged by an editor to explain what that term means. That's when I stumbled.
I fly to Honolulu on 4/18 and will deliver CM to Long Beach and will keep my eyes open to the performance characteristics this time. I will also be doing the TP and should have a greater opp to see it again and hopefully will be able to define it as it pertains to the SC50.
Dave
The true wind dies suddenly so all that's left is the "wind" created by boat speed. The apparent wind moves forward to directly on the nose. The spinnaker collapses, of course. Probably violently. The faster the boat speed, the worse the "crash". Bearing off doesn't help because the apparent wind stays right on the nose in the absence of any true wind.
Bill
does the wind ever really just die? I guess you could have a transition zone that we often had during the evening beer can race out of Santa Cruz YC. Besides wearing a baggie kite, I don't understand the reason to use the word "crash". Sorry, I guess I'm not much help.
John
Bill
does the wind ever really just die? I guess you could have a transition zone that we often had during the evening beer can race out of Santa Cruz YC. Besides wearing a baggie kite, I don't understand the reason to use the word "crash". Sorry, I guess I'm not much help.
John
Dan,
I think you'll agree that we've all been politely waiting for some statement from the Transpac powers that be as to the starting sequence. I am still getting emails from many in our fleet regularly wondering what's up. Many are trying to make the correct arrangements for flights and rooms and we are all feeling somewhat abandoned and frustrated. So I ask, what's up? This is not some exercise that takes this kind of time, this is not life and death as are some situations on this planet, it is a sailboat race! Let's get this done in some timely fashion so we can get on with the things that we should all be doing with the short time left before the starts. The fleet is what it is and it's the same fleet as before the stalling tactic employed by the committee, no real material changes there. Please get this decision made and more importantly announced to the racers.
Jon Shampain
Eastwind Offshore Sailing
I think you'll agree that we've all been politely waiting for some statement from the Transpac powers that be as to the starting sequence. I am still getting emails from many in our fleet regularly wondering what's up. Many are trying to make the correct arrangements for flights and rooms and we are all feeling somewhat abandoned and frustrated. So I ask, what's up? This is not some exercise that takes this kind of time, this is not life and death as are some situations on this planet, it is a sailboat race! Let's get this done in some timely fashion so we can get on with the things that we should all be doing with the short time left before the starts. The fleet is what it is and it's the same fleet as before the stalling tactic employed by the committee, no real material changes there. Please get this decision made and more importantly announced to the racers.
Jon Shampain
Eastwind Offshore Sailing
Gentleman,
Below are this mornings exchange with Dan Nolan of US Sailing and Transpac board member. This seems to be the week that we may finally get a decision from the powers that be... not particularly quick in making decisions and notifying us all. It still doesn't seem like rocket science to me. This is the week to bombard them all (Transpac Committee members that is) and let you're views be known. They are hoping that with the stalling tactic they have used maybe everyone will forget or they will loose interest as there are many more important things going on in all our lives. If the Wednesday start day is important to you, email, have your crew members email everyone that sits on the board and let your views be known. If you know anyone on the board personally, call and have a direct discussion with those individuals...especially Bill Lee. I've even seen emails from a Transpac boat inspector supporting the extra start day. Thank you all for your continuing support
Jon Shampain
Eastwind Offshore Sailing
Jon
Bill Lee is organizing for this week a special board meeting to resolve this issue.
Bill, Mark, Gordon & Dave,
This is important to our RACE. Please go to the Transpac website & email all the important folks that you are a crew number aboard Chasch Mer SC50 #1 and that you think in all fairness that we should start on July 6th not the 8th. This will make the race much closer. This needs to be done today.
Thank you.
This is important to our RACE. Please go to the Transpac website & email all the important folks that you are a crew number aboard Chasch Mer SC50 #1 and that you think in all fairness that we should start on July 6th not the 8th. This will make the race much closer. This needs to be done today.
Thank you.
Aloha Bill, Dave, Dan, Al, Mike & Cathie,
Congratulations on the 65 entries to this years race. With this economy
that is monumental.
This letter is to request, once again, that you reconsider the 2 starts
verses the 3 starts used in the last few races. I raced in 1989 on Swans
Island (40ft. IMS) and that year EVERYBODY stared together. The start was
fun with so many boats. However, we quickly saw the big boys vanish, minutes
later the 50s were gone. It was three races with one start. We never saw
another yacht. Thank God for radio check in or we would have been pretty
lonely.
The next Transpac,1991 I was on Perestroika (X-119) when there were three
days of starts. We saw boats for many days, we still watched the bigger
boats go by, however, this time we felt like part of the fleet. In my
opinion we still had three races. There is no way around that. The distance
is too great and the speed ranges are too great. But, it is a lot more fun
being a part of something rather than arriving after the fact.
I am sure this is a different rational than you are hearing from the many
others after the same request. Just my perspective.
My crew & I aboard Chasch Mer request the 2011 Transpac return to the three
starts July 4th,6th & 8th.
Thank you.
gib
PS Please forward to Bo Wheeler as I do not have his email address.
Congratulations on the 65 entries to this years race. With this economy
that is monumental.
This letter is to request, once again, that you reconsider the 2 starts
verses the 3 starts used in the last few races. I raced in 1989 on Swans
Island (40ft. IMS) and that year EVERYBODY stared together. The start was
fun with so many boats. However, we quickly saw the big boys vanish, minutes
later the 50s were gone. It was three races with one start. We never saw
another yacht. Thank God for radio check in or we would have been pretty
lonely.
The next Transpac,1991 I was on Perestroika (X-119) when there were three
days of starts. We saw boats for many days, we still watched the bigger
boats go by, however, this time we felt like part of the fleet. In my
opinion we still had three races. There is no way around that. The distance
is too great and the speed ranges are too great. But, it is a lot more fun
being a part of something rather than arriving after the fact.
I am sure this is a different rational than you are hearing from the many
others after the same request. Just my perspective.
My crew & I aboard Chasch Mer request the 2011 Transpac return to the three
starts July 4th,6th & 8th.
Thank you.
gib
PS Please forward to Bo Wheeler as I do not have his email address.
3/8/11
I can’t figure out what the “apparent wind crash” means either. The other question I have is the statement that they didn’t expect the boat to go upwind fast because of the narrow beam. Maybe I have it wrong, but I always thought upwind was what skinny boats did well.
Cliff
3/10/11
I am not sure but it seems like he is talking about the rapid change in relative wind direction. When the true wind is aft smaller changes in boat speed, wind speed, wind direction, or boat direction will cause a greater change to relative wind direction then when the true wind is forward and the farther aft the greater the difference. So if the boat is racing down the face of a wave and then needs to climb up the next wave the boat significantly slows causing the relative wind direction to go aft very much and require the pole to come aft or the boat to sail off.
keith
March 7, 2011 5:57:03 AM
Subject: apparent wind crash
3/9/11
Sent: Tue, March 8, 2011 5:15:18 PM
Subject: Re: apparent wind crash
I just opened the doc you sent and quickly scanned it without going into detail.
Either you are an editor or an instructor. That's great!
I am currently in a complete re-write and took the edits from both of you and figured out what I need to do. The ice is broken and I'm running with it.
I did what you did regarding researching and apparent wind crash. It is well known what apparent wind is but adding the word crash to it literally stops the record.
I sent out a mass e/m and got 4 responses that I will edit, put together a synopsis and send back out for approval.
I sent it to:
Gib: told me to ask a sail-maker.
Mark: award winning small boat sailor came back with a good technical answer.
Jay: a delivery captain that I've only known for a few years thru e/m, gave a very technical answer.
Bill: delivery captain for Chasch Mer this April (when we will meet) came back with a wonderful, simple explanation.
Basically, their answers were scattered but somewhat focused. There is no definitive answer and it is my job to define that term so it can be challenged. David, I woke up this morning thinking KISS ! keep it simple stupid.
We are getting too tangled up in trying to define a term (crash?). Below is where this all started.
(who, what, where, when, why).
Just trying to help - so these are my final thoughts on "crash"
Love,\
Dad
David
PS; for the future edits, keep it on one page. it was hard to track those 2 docs with 12 or so others that i had open at the same time.
I'm trying to understand this (one page). should I make my edits on the original copy you send to me - what is the best way for me to highlight my edits - strike out the old words and leave them in? Just use color to denote the new or changed words.?
Editing for someone else is new to me too, so tell me how I can make it better/easier for you.
3/8/11
I just read through it and yes you are trying to figure it out just like me.
I need to really focus on this and it means before the sun comes up and halfway thru my pint of coffee.
I have to visualize the event and do the math. Jay sailed Chasch Mer and told me about crashes on that boat so I need to go back in memory and study it. It very much has to do with a sudden change of wind as it meets the sail and the sail collapsing.
I have been thru it before but we don't talk about it while it happens. We yell, hang on and try to recover. It is an indescribable world out there riding the SC50 in all its glory. This detail might not get a final write until I do the delivery.
I can't leave you hanging so here is what I got back:
For the record, I did not state that I was writing a book and only Gib knows. Here is my response to Jay:
Jay,
I appreciate your response and I needed it.
There is a specific reason why I am researching that particular quote with respect to Merlin and 1977 and wanted multiple opinions from experienced sailors. I will edit those opinions in to an understandable paragraph for the non-sailor; that can be a difficult task, sometimes.
There are several technical aspects of sailing that I am currently researching and I need to clarify the way the words will be put together. I will eventually edit the responses and send it back out for a final round of opinions.
There currently is a range of opinions as to what it is but they are all close to each other. My problem is to edit those opinions, which means chopping them up, and make a statement that can be challenged.
In retrospect, we all have experienced an apparent wind crash but I got challenged by an editor to explain what that term means. That's when I stumbled.
I fly to Honolulu on 4/18 and will deliver CM to Long Beach and will keep my eyes open to the performance characteristics this time. I will also be doing the TP and should have a greater opp to see it again and hopefully will be able to define it as it pertains to the SC50.
Dave
David
March 7, 2011 5:57:03 AM
Subject: apparent wind crash
| Hi, I am researching some of the 1977 sea-trials of S/V Merlin and came across this quote: With so little beam, Merlin was never expected to go upwind with any speed. Off the wind, however, she created tremendous apparent wind. In flat water she would sail with the pole on the forestay while the true wind was well aft of the beam. “For those of us used to heavier boats, this was totally unique,” says Steve Taft, an early crewmember and the boat’s sailmaker for many years. “If the true wind died, (which would leave only the apparent wind) we’d experience these incredible apparent wind crashes.” (or should the loss/change of wind be called a true wind crash??? Dad I need some help defining the term, "apparent wind crash". If you have any information or opinion please feel free to ante up. thanks |
3/9/11
See thoughts in red below -
Sent: Tue, March 8, 2011 5:15:18 PM
Subject: Re: apparent wind crash
I just opened the doc you sent and quickly scanned it without going into detail.
Either you are an editor or an instructor. That's great!
I am currently in a complete re-write and took the edits from both of you and figured out what I need to do. The ice is broken and I'm running with it.
I did what you did regarding researching and apparent wind crash. It is well known what apparent wind is but adding the word crash to it literally stops the record.
I sent out a mass e/m and got 4 responses that I will edit, put together a synopsis and send back out for approval.
I sent it to:
Gib: told me to ask a sail-maker.
Mark: award winning small boat sailor came back with a good technical answer.
Jay: a delivery captain that I've only known for a few years thru e/m, gave a very technical answer.
Bill: delivery captain for Chasch Mer this April (when we will meet) came back with a wonderful, simple explanation.
Basically, their answers were scattered but somewhat focused. There is no definitive answer and it is my job to define that term so it can be challenged. David, I woke up this morning thinking KISS ! keep it simple stupid.
We are getting too tangled up in trying to define a term (crash?). Below is where this all started.
The initial sea-trials surprised those who already expected her to be fast. She was not expected to sail impressively upwind due to the narrow beam and somewhat flattened bottom but off the wind all bets were off. This design and concept changed the parameters of how to manage the performance capabilities. It came to light that in certain situations off the wind she created tremendous apparent wind and “…if the true wind died, we’d experience these incredible apparent wind crashes.”
The casual reader will not care about "apparent" or "true" wind - and the knowledgeable reader will understand what it is (the phenomena??). So how about explaining how/why Merlin reacted differently than other boats, to a condition of the wind stopping/dropping enough to stop the boat - or cause the sails to deflate, or whatever is a result. Maybe just explain what happens and why it happens, and why Merlin is different/better. (who, what, where, when, why).
Just trying to help - so these are my final thoughts on "crash"
Love,\
Dad
David
PS; for the future edits, keep it on one page. it was hard to track those 2 docs with 12 or so others that i had open at the same time.
I'm trying to understand this (one page). should I make my edits on the original copy you send to me - what is the best way for me to highlight my edits - strike out the old words and leave them in? Just use color to denote the new or changed words.?
Editing for someone else is new to me too, so tell me how I can make it better/easier for you.
3/8/11
I just read through it and yes you are trying to figure it out just like me.
I need to really focus on this and it means before the sun comes up and halfway thru my pint of coffee.
I have to visualize the event and do the math. Jay sailed Chasch Mer and told me about crashes on that boat so I need to go back in memory and study it. It very much has to do with a sudden change of wind as it meets the sail and the sail collapsing.
I have been thru it before but we don't talk about it while it happens. We yell, hang on and try to recover. It is an indescribable world out there riding the SC50 in all its glory. This detail might not get a final write until I do the delivery.
I can't leave you hanging so here is what I got back:
3/7/11 I don’t think Taft meant “crash” in the sense of a broach.
If the true wind suddenly drops to zero, and the boat is moving at, say 10 knots, then the apparent wind will come from directly ahead at 10 knots. The kite will collapse and you won’t be able to get it to fill, as you try to turn away from the wind to get it to fill, the apparent wind just follows the direction the boat is going and will appear to be coming from the direction the bow is pointed until the boat comes to a stop and the apparent wind drops to zero. I don’t see how this sequence of events would create a broach, but the kite will collapse. You see this sort of thing on the Express also.
Cheers,
Mark
3/7-11
The true wind dies suddenly so all that's left is the "wind" created by boat speed. The apparent wind moves forward to directly on the nose. The spinnaker collapses, of course. Probably violently. The faster the boat speed, the worse the "crash". Bearing off doesn't help because the apparent wind stays right on the nose in the absence of any true wind.
Bill
Bill
3/7/11 My GUESS is over running the wind. Ask a sailmaker.
Gib
Gib
David:
I am surprised that you never experienced an "apparent wind crash" on your crossing on Chasch Mer. From my experience with apparent wind sailing on multihulls, it is an all to frequent and antagonizing affair. Most often, if you are reaching hard under spinny, with the true wind almost dead aft and you get a lull or a sudden shift aback, you get the mad mans gybe! I even experienced it on C Mer in the '07 delivery. Quite a different affair from an uncontrolled gybe on a displacement boat.
With all your experience, I was` a bit taken aback by your lack of understanding of the phrase.
I believe if you look back at the polars` you were sailing, with respect to the true wind speed and direction, you will remember those times the boat lost it! Apparent wind crash!
189);">
If you are interested in chartering a boat capable of sailing in the apparent wind category and need an experienced helmsman for this kind of sailing, send me a letter.
J
For the record, I did not state that I was writing a book and only Gib knows. Here is my response to Jay:
Jay,
I appreciate your response and I needed it.
There is a specific reason why I am researching that particular quote with respect to Merlin and 1977 and wanted multiple opinions from experienced sailors. I will edit those opinions in to an understandable paragraph for the non-sailor; that can be a difficult task, sometimes.
There are several technical aspects of sailing that I am currently researching and I need to clarify the way the words will be put together. I will eventually edit the responses and send it back out for a final round of opinions.
There currently is a range of opinions as to what it is but they are all close to each other. My problem is to edit those opinions, which means chopping them up, and make a statement that can be challenged.
In retrospect, we all have experienced an apparent wind crash but I got challenged by an editor to explain what that term means. That's when I stumbled.
I fly to Honolulu on 4/18 and will deliver CM to Long Beach and will keep my eyes open to the performance characteristics this time. I will also be doing the TP and should have a greater opp to see it again and hopefully will be able to define it as it pertains to the SC50.
Dave
David
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